Debate… Be Forewarned!

Isn’t it funny how different facets of your life can begin to talk on the same issue at the same time?  Took recently sent me grocery shopping to find out the difference in price between organic and regular milk and now there is a conversation going on with my homeschool group that I moderate as to animal practices in circuses and zoos.  So, for the blogging audience not privy to my other group’s conversation, and because I would be interested in hearing from you guys, I’ll copy and paste (same ol’ K… you can stop reading now, if you want… *grin*).  My only comment is that it must be very hard for hardcore vegetarians to socialize with those of us who are not, because food is almost ALWAYS involved. (Please scroll down to the bottom and read the posts backwards so that you have them in their proper sequence… I know, a pain… but it’s really time consuming to “fix it”.

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We’ll try not to. .. lol
 
But that is a big issue for a lot of vegetarians.  I do have friends that won’t eat cheese unless they know it was not animal-based rennet.  I try to avoid it, but often wonder if Kraft and Sargento tell the truth. . .

Yes, I did google and eventually found out what was being discussed.  Can’t say I get behind this one, though… but you’ll not hate me, right?
Tammy  :):)

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Some cheeses are made with animal enzymes (rennet) cultured from intestines of young calves. . .Mostly off brands–Kraft and Sargento say that most of their cheeses are made from non-animal enzymes (except for Kraft’s extra sharp. .. )  This is hard because you can’t go to someone’s house and say “What brand is your cheese. . .”  LOL  Well, I can’t anyway. . .And the boys love getting the character cheese with Mickey on the package, which knowing all things mouse, probably isn’t truly vegetarian. 
Any of the organic cheese spoils way too quick for us and soy cheese is just yucky. . ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You guys know I wasn’t saying that the kind folks who are concerned for animal rights aren’t concerned for children… right?  Just want to be clear on that…
And I am googling stuff… so I am reacquainting myself with the issue.  I will say we went to a Shrine circus when the twins were very little and were SO not impressed.  It was in Lexington and not very impressive from any standpoint.  From what I understand, some circuses, like Shrine’s but not Ringling Bros… if I understood correctly…  don’t actually own the animals they use, so it’s the circus companies behind the productions that should bear the scrutiny (like this George Carden guy… he’s the owner of the circus in question, Shriners (and I have no connection to the organization) are responsible for hiring him… not what he does.
So far, I think I’ve managed to see some interesting information, on both sides.  You should note, though, the dates on some of the offenses listed go back to 88 or so… and while time doesn’t necessarily mean the issue has been resolved, a lot could have been done to better the situation since 1988… so I would be aware of that.
As with any issue, there’s more than one side and many different justifications AND ways to skew the information to appear the way that side wants it to appear.  It’s hard to be discerning.
Tammy  :):)

I appreciate hearing all the sides to the story.  Personally, my heart and subconscious always consider the children first, then the animals.  Not that I want any animal to suffer.  So thanks for keeping it real on both sides of the line.  You would think the organization might consider hiring someone else if this Cardin has USDA fines against him (but I would be interested if anyone knows the background to those fines… the USDA IS a government arm…. never trust “the man”!) 
Now I have no idea what the “enzyme issue” is… so I’m going to go google it (”there are more things in this world, Horatio…”).
This is a topic that bothers a lot of thoughtful Christians.  It’s not my fight, per say, but I do like to know what’s going on.
 
Tammy  :):)
(who, as the moderator, sees no problem with this conversation and in fact… encourages open discourse.  Just keep it nice!  And thanks for noting in the topic line OT… which means it’s off topic, in case some are scratching their heads.)

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S, Thanks for posting this info.  We’ll be out of town, or we’d consider it. . .We struggle with the circus thing because I don’t like the animals being used for entertainment; yet, it is entertaining, especially for kids who don’t get to see these things up close.  We struggle with zoos, too. . .The argument being, of course, if kids/people don’t see these creatures, they won’t care about protecting them.  And it’s fascinating to see how smart some of them really are. . .
 
Being vegetarian (but not quite ready to make the vegan cut), it’s hard to know that there are difficult questions out there, not just zoos & circuses, but the leather, enzyme issue (which is a major struggle at our house), and silk (which we refuse).  We cave on the leather shoes occassionally, but many times, there are more alternatives than you think. . .
 
Thanks again for the info!
K.
Yep I’ve been there, great places.  I am opposed to any circus using animals; there are more humane ways to raise money.  And as I said..just FYI in case anyone else is interested in a peaceful demonstration advocating better treatment for God’s creatures used in entertainment.  My intention was not to step on any toes, just disseminate information.The Shriner’s Circus is not a fundraiser for the hospital and they take steps to make sure that it is understood that it does not go to the hospitals.  It goes into a general fund.  A portion of the general fund goes to the hospital.  Gas for the vans that go pick up the children all across each state for free and bring them and their families to the hospitals.   If you have never been to a Shriner’s hospital, then you should.  They are wonderful places where children receive their medical care for FREE.  The Shriner’s themselves volunteer their time and drive the vans.  The Shriner’s paper drive, one of their times where they are collecting in the middle of the road, is what goes to the hospitals.  Any other questions, I would be glad to answer about the Shriner’s or find out the answer. 

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In case anyone is interested in combatting the cruelty of Circuses
Please note that although they imply the Shriners Circus is a fundraiser for the Children’s Hospitals, the money goes into a Shriner  Fraternity Fund. Please join us (ALL~~Animal Lovers of Louisville)  for the Shrine Circus demonstration on Saturday February 9th at 1:00 .
For those of you that have never attended a demonstration before and are apprehensive, this is nothing radical. All you have to do is stand there for an hour and hold a sign.
Please help us. We need all the support we can get.
Please cross-post.
Thank you.
Louisville KY…Hi everyone, The Shrine Circus is coming to town Thursday February 7th thru Sunday February 10th.  ALL (Animal Lovers of Louisville) is planning a peaceful demonstration for the 2:00pm show on Saturday February 9th, 2008.  The demonstration will be held at the Main Gate at the Fair and Expo Center on Philips Lane.  We need to assemble at 1:00 pm at the Main Gate.  .  We will be there less than one hour.  I will have all the signs and pamphlets we will need…. just bring yourself and a friend.   Last year we had 42 people and the scheduled shows were cut by two days.   We are making a difference!   Look for the orange cones and we will be there.  No permit is needed for this part of the demonstration because we will be on a city owned street.  Parking is always a problem; however, we can park in the Transportation Cabinets’ parking lot, which is across the street (Philips Lane side) from the Executive Inn. They are closed on Saturday and we parked there last year.  You could also park in the Executive Inns’ parking lot but if you do, park away from the demonstration because they made us move last year.  My number is 502-267-4637 please call if you have any questions.   Please take a few minutes and call these people and let them know what you think of the animal circuses they bring to town.  The Shriners hire George Cardin who is one of the worst in the business.  He has multiple USDA fines for cruelty to animals.  This can be found online.  The Shrine Headquarters number in Louisville is 587-0406 and 585-5863. Kosair Charities (who support the Shriners circus) number is 637-7696.  Let them know you will not be donating any money to them.